DUST Search - [Feedback] SP cap and new players

R'ahz Lupo wrote:

Can militia gear stack up against heavy moded shields and a codewish? Even if you are more skilled than your opponent, it is a tough matchup. I can't count the times I have started to shoot someone first but they cap me with a killswitch or codewish or douvelle before I can finish them off. Stack their better guns with some damage buffs too.

In any other shooter I have played, it has been balanced in such a way that I could pick it up and do well based on my skill - even when using the starting guns and load outs.

Dust is not like that. I do fairly well against new players and average players - even skilled players. I just can't touch the guys that rock the high tier gear. Nobody can. I take note of the kill info stream and who is killing who, with what. The high tier users are rocking steady 20:1 k/ds. Consistantly. That's nuts! Are these guys just coincidently the best players in all of the Dust server? I don't think so.

So... Someone who has been playing longer will have a distinct advantage over new players or players that don't play as often. That's ridiculous. There should be no SP cap. No one should have to start a new character or get grinded into the dirt for a month because they bought a skill to experiment with. Players shouldn't be pigeon holed into a specialized role to remain somewhat effective in combat.

Am I the only one who wants to sometimes be a medic, or sniper or heavy?


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:38:00 - [1] - Quote That idea is terrible. That will make it EASIER for more active players to grind and outstrip everyone else. What WOULD be good is if the diminishing returns effect was scaled based on the average player SP. If you're significantly below the average SP level, diminishing returns should kick in later, with less effect, or not at all. The diminishing returns should affect players more based on how high their SP count has built up, so new players will be penalised by the system LESS than someone who's been around a long time.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 17:08:00 - [2] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Can militia gear stack up against heavy moded shields and a codewish? Even if you are more skilled than your opponent, it is a tough matchup. I can't count the times I have started to shoot someone first but they cap me with a killswitch or codewish or douvelle before I can finish them off. Stack their better guns with some damage buffs too. In any other shooter I have played, it has been balanced in such a way that I could pick it up and do well based on my skill - even when using the starting guns and load outs. Dust is not like that. I do fairly well against new players and average players - even skilled players. I just can't touch the guys that rock the high tier gear. Nobody can. I take note of the kill info stream and who is killing who, with what. The high tier users are rocking steady 20:1 k/ds. Consistantly. That's nuts! Are these guys just coincidently the best players in all of the Dust server? I don't think so. So... Someone who has been playing longer will have a distinct advantage over new players or players that don't play as often. That's ridiculous. There should be no SP cap. No one should have to start a new character or get grinded into the dirt for a month because they bought a skill to experiment with. Players shouldn't be pigeon holed into a specialized role to remain somewhat effective in combat. Am I the only one who wants to sometimes be a medic, or sniper or heavy? Honestly, with decently-leveled skills, you can VERY heavily narrow down the gap between yourself and the "high-tier" players - EVEN if you stick with Militia gear. I've got Weaponry and Mechanics to level 5, and with pure Militia fits (either BPO-modded Starter Fits or Skinweave+BPO fittings), I can hold my own against prototype gear - including the AUR "may as well be proto" gear. I rarely come out on top, and if the other guy outplays me, I still get outplayed, but in a straight-up fight, both players playing to our advantages as well as we can, it's generally pretty even... ...even, that is, until you consider how much bigger the dent in their wallet is by the end of the match Moral of the story: SP > gear.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 19:03:00 - [3] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: SP > gear, because SP helps you unlock the high tier gear. I do fairly well with militia builds, but I'm just getting sick of seeing crazy high tier users and their ridiculous k/d. It just hurts my soul a little :P For instance, a guy just capped me with a codewish. I remember this guy's name. I find him and track him with a sniper rifle. He engages in a fire fight with two of my team mates while I shoot him center mass. His shield goes down to half. He caps my two buddies and loses the rest of his shield and a third of his armour. He runs off on account of me missing my follow up shot(even though my reticle was red...). Is this guy THAT good, or did he have a good gear/SP advantage. Honestly, in the given example, it was more about SP and luck than gear. You got glitched out of a kill, the same thing probably would have happened if he was using the same skills and Militia gear.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 19:51:00 - [4] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Okay, new example... I just came from a match where I was the only player on my team with a positive k/d. One other guy managed to break even. The top four players from the enemy team used Duvolle tac rifles. There scores were 20/1, 14/0, 16/2, 12/4. Two camped out the rooftop at the center of the map. The other two guarded the base of the tower. Good tactics, by the way.... And then the precision strikes began... Anyway, did I just get dropped into the worst team ever against the four best players ever? So, how do you feel about the SP cap anyway, Blacknova? In that example, good, well-geared, and MORE IMPORTANTLY, well-leveled players stuck together, probably with a "defend" order on the squad leader. A few good kills with the order bonus can rack up the SP fast, and once you have enough for the first strike, that starts your next run of SP farming on a high note if you place it well. They worked together while, your team almost certainly weren't working together to break their formation, and most likely had less total SP on your entire team than those 4 spent just on maxing out their skills for ARs and survivability. If those same guys had been running a combination of Militia Snipers on the roof with Nanohives and Militia ARs on the ground, they would have probably only died a couple of times more than they actually did. Add Weaponry level 5 to a Militia Sniper Rifle - you don't even need anything in Sniper Prof, and you can take down most Prototype Dropsuits with a single headshot. It's not a sure thing, but it's not far short, and if you have any support at all, the target WILL die. I have a LOT of SPs invested in the basic Weaponry/Mechanics/Engineering/Electronics skills, and a good amount in Swarms and SMGs specifically. I've dumped a few points into ARs and Snipers for some experimentation, but not enough into either weapon to start seeing direct damage buffs. In spite of that, I'm fighting on ALMOST-even terms against players with Prototype equipment. My Starter Fit/Skinweave Assault suits can tank a lot more damage with a Militia-grade dual-tank than a player with a Prototype Sniper fit designed to one-shot Heavies.If I can avoid that first shot, or get in behind the sniper, I win. If I'm up against a tac rifle, same deal. In spite of having NO SP in the SHotgun-specific skills on my main, I do reasonably well with the Militia Shotgun too. If I'm trying to solo a coordinated group of 4 high-SP players, then... I'm going somewhere else and hoping their inevitable Orbital Strikes don't come my way too often. I'll go hunting the rest of their team. I'll wait until someone's on mic, or I'm with a group of at least 3 players who are actually working together. IF that happens in a pub match (and it can, but it's rare), we have a pretty good chance. When I say SP > gear, I don't ONLY mean that because you need SP to get the gear. One guy has Weaponry level 2, AR Ops maxed out at level 5, but no points in Prof, and none of the "Light Weapon" skills that apply to ARs. The other guy has Weaponry 5, level 1 Light Weapon Sharpshooter, level 3 Rapid Reload, and level 2 in Prof as well as maxed-out Ops. Give the guy with less AR and Light Weapon skills the best AR he can equip, and he'll be LESS effective than the high-SP guy with a Militia AR. SPs make the lower-tier gear work better as well. Two guys with identical gun-game and identical fittings, SP will be the deciding factor. Player skill - both in fitting their suits/vehicles AND in handling them - factors in more than the gear itself does. SP count (not necessarily your total SP, but SP in skills relevant to your current fitting) factors in more than the gear itself. I think SP makes slightly MORE difference than player skill, and the combination of SP and gear can make a bad player out-perform a skilled player on their alt. And my opinion on the SP cap is that it's good to PREVENT the hardcore players with lots of free time to play from outstripping everyone else too horribly. It actually makes things MORE fair on the casuals, not less. I think it would be nice if the diminishing returns effect kicked in slower on players with lower SP count, so a new character's SP earnings don't drop away as harshly as you play more often, but as you skill up, you start losing out on gradually more SP from the restrictions. For hardcore players, it's not going to be any real effect because they'll hit the cap anyway. For casuals, it'll be a benefit in getting into the game - which means they get more of a draw as they learn the depth in the system, but they'll have to work harder to skill into alternative roles after developing a primary specialty.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 21:07:00 - [5] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: Nice answer. Another one For you. You say that you throw points into your swarm launchers. What exactly do you do? I heard a bunch of people complaining about swarms being over powered, but I can't seem to get them to work. In 32 swarm based suits I've managed to get an assist on a HV, destroy 3 LV, and I caused a bail out of a dropship. That's not a very economical return... Half the time, I'll stand on the outskirts of the map in a nano hive bubble unloading swarm after swarm at a circling dropship. Why are people complaining about swarms? Am I missing an upgrade or skill? It usually takes 2 full salvos to destroy just a LV... What's up? I usually run with suits based - loosely - on my BPO-modded "Anti-Armour" Starter Fit. If you have some AUR to spare for Militia BPOs, you can run this fitting with no restocking required. The Starter Fit used as a base comes with a free Swarm Launcher, which is good because you can't buy a BPO for that. I swapped the Pistol out for the Toxin SMG - mostly because of CPU/PG use, but I do better with SMGs most of the time anyway. Filled both high slots with Militia Shield Extenders (With my pay-per-use suits, there's usually at least one Damage Mod, more is better) and an Armour Repper in the low slot (because I'm often behind enemy lines when i'm running free gear). Final change from the default loadout was to equip a Nanohive. If you don't have the Toxin, you can just load one Shield Extender to replace the Damage Mod if you need survival more than the damage, or if your Electronics/Engineering skills don't hold up. It requires at least 1 or 2 points in Electronics (can't remember which, but drop the repper and you don't break the Militia Assault's baseline CPU use anyway) and at least 3 points in Engineering (unless you run with only the one Shield Extender). If you're up against infantry, force the fight into enclosed spaces by any means possible. Snipers and ARs at range are NOT your friend. Sprint from cover to cover while closing the gap enough to be effective. And when you're close, get REALLY close and aim high. For vehicles, get as close as you can get away with and lock on while you've got cover between you and their guns - you WILL (no matter what EnglishSnake says) need line of sight to SOME part of the target in most cases. There are occasionally times where the game will allow a lock through a wall, but you ALMOST always need to be able to see SOMETHING. Just the edge on the LAV's bumper will be enough. Once you have a lock, you have a few seconds to reposition and re-aim. Your missiles will fire forwards a short distance before tracking. There are two good uses for this fact. Firstly, you can fire the missiles away in one direction while moving in another, to divert the return fire away from your actual destination. Secondly, you can fire around obstacles after moving further into cover. The BIG advantage Swarms have as AV weapons is a damage buff against the target's armour. If your first hit on a well-protected LAV takes more than half its shields, the second shot will almost certainly kill it. Against HAVs, where possible, either act as a distraction or focus on other targets until the shield has been softened up by someone else. Like a friendly Forge Gunner, HAV or Dropship. You CAN put a few dents in their shields, but not enough to really scare them. Also, don't forget to use Supply Depots where available, and Nanohives when there are not Depots.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.14 22:19:00 - [6] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: @Blacknova Good advice versus the ground targets... So, the swarm is only really effective against armour, but lacks strength against shields? Your load out seems pretty close to mine. Everything is the same except I run with the dual light damage buffs, instead of shield extension. I never start with this class, I only swap it in when I notice a lot of vehicles out. How do you stop dropships? I can stand in a nano hive and drop 2 full mags at a dropship and watch my 30 missles slowly trail a dropship before fizzling out. I've even waited until the dropship was coming towards me, but the swarms did not go straight for it. They curved around so they could follow behind the dropship instead of heading directly at it... You need to get close to Dropships and fire when they're slowing down. Or fire at them from the direction they're moving in - be where they're going before they get there. Otherwise, they'll just outpace your Swarms. In general, Forge Guns and gun turrets (emplacements and vehicle-mounted) are your best bet.